The Cost of Being the Good Girl | Gail Watson

How much does being the "good girl" really cost?

In this episode of SHE Asked: Tools for Practical Hope, Anna McBride sits down with entrepreneur, writer, and creative Gail Watson for an honest conversation about people-pleasing, self-abandonment, boundaries, and what it takes to find your way back to yourself.

For years, Gail believed her worth came from being the strong one—the caregiver, the achiever, the woman who never complained and always put everyone else first. But after navigating an abusive marriage, caring for her mother through dementia, and years of sacrificing her own needs, she reached a breaking point that forced her to ask one life-changing question:

Who am I if I stop living for everyone else?

Together, Anna and Gail explore the hidden cost of overgiving, why so many women confuse sacrifice with love, and how healing begins when we stop abandoning ourselves and start honoring our own needs.

This conversation is for every woman who has ever felt exhausted from being strong, struggled to ask for help, or wondered if she's allowed to take up space in her own life.

✨ In this episode:
• The hidden cost of being the "good girl"
• Why women confuse sacrifice with love
• How people-pleasing leads to self-abandonment
• Learning to ask for help without guilt
• Rebuilding your identity after loss and difficult relationships
• Setting healthy boundaries without shame
• Moving from survival to healing
• Finding the courage to choose yourself

Connect with Gail Watson:

📸 Instagram
@gail.watson.photo
@ahealthyhunger

🎥 TikTok
@ahealthyhunger
@alittlebirdstudio

📝 Substack
A Healthy Hunger

Ready for support in your own healing and growth journey?

💛 Schedule a complimentary consultation with Anna:
https://www.annamcbride.com

Subscribe for more conversations about healing, self-worth, relationships, resilience, boundaries, reinvention, and practical hope.

#GoodGirlSyndrome #PeoplePleasing #Boundaries #SelfWorth #HealingJourney #PersonalGrowth #WomenSupportingWomen #SelfAbandonment #Relationships #EmotionalHealing #SHEAsked #AnnaMcBride

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Transcript

Welcome And Who This Helps

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back to She Asked: Tools for Practical Hope. I'm your host, Anna McBride, and I am so glad you're here with us today. Every week we explore the stories, tools, and insights that help us navigate life's transitions with greater courage, clarity, and hope. If you found yourself asking, who am I now? After a divorce, loss, caregiven season, career change, or simply years of putting someone else's needs or everyone else's needs ahead of your own, today's conversation is for you. Before we begin, I want to remind you that if you're navigating a life's transition and looking for support, I offer coaching workshops, online courses, and complimentary consultations through my website, anamcbride.com. Now let's get started.

Gail’s Story Of Survival Mode

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Today I'm joined by Gail Watson. Gail is an entrepreneur, writer, and creative force whose life has taken her through remarkable personal and professional chapters. After building a successful reputation and career, Gail found herself facing a series of profound transitions, an abusive marriage, the loss of her mother, family caregiving responsibilities, and the difficult process of rebuilding your life and identity after years of living in survival mode. What emerged from that experience wasn't simply a new chapter, it was an entirely new relationship with herself. Gail, welcome to She Ask. I'm so glad you're here today.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Hi. Oh my god, that intro is amazing. Thank you. And God, yeah. That it sounds sounds like a lot. It was a lot.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, you've been through a lot. So we like to begin our our episodes with a story. So please share with us your experience of how you went from losing yourself to finding your way back.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

So I think in a lot of ways, my my story is not uncommon. I'm the oldest daughter of the oldest sibling, you know, the first grandchild, first granddaughter. And I have a brother who has emotional mental needs. Nothing terrific, but she he demanded a lot of attention. So I became the good girl, you know, the girl who, you know, took care of everybody, made sure everything was smooth and whatnot. I was great at it, really great at it. I come from a long line of entrepreneurs. So also that sense of independence and just doing things um on your own, you know, like striking out to doing things the way you want to do them, is also sort of ingrained in me. After I graduated high school, I and what I went to art school. I was not given a lot of encouragement to do my art. And so I went into the business that I grew up in, which was food, and became very successful at it. It was great. And I did it for 25 years. And one day I woke up and I was like, I am exhausted. You know, I had been giving and caring. And my business, I was in the wedding cake business, I worked every single weekend, so I had very little social life and you know, all that kind of stuff. So I hadn't had a partner, I'd gotten divorced uh 12 years into my marriage. And so it was just like I needed a change. And so after being the caregiver, I wanted to be taken care of, and which was really, really weird for me. And so I ended up with someone who really wanted to do that, but because they could manipulate me and you know, I was for them, you know what I mean? That we weren't for each other, I was for them. It was it was surprising to me because I think I was told everything that I wanted to hear. You know, when you when I when you're so when you're when you evolve in a in a situation where you're always not thinking of yourself, when someone turns their attention on you and says, You're amazing, you're so wonderful, I've never met anybody like you, you're like, Oh, all the things that I've always wanted to hear. And so, yeah, so I fell, you know, long and hard. And then after we got married, this is my third marriage, actually, things immediately started to fall apart. It's like all of a sudden, I was just became very controlling and difficult. And then in the midst of all that, um my mother developed dementia, which is a very difficult thing for me because my mother was a very big person in the community. I grew up in a small town on the east end of Long Island in Greenport, and she was the other mayor. Everybody knew Mae Watson. She ran a business in town that was very successful, everybody hung out there. She was like Mama May. And my mother always took care of everybody else, but never really took care of me. So it was like this weird dynamic of having this super dynamic mother I was very proud of, and I thought was pretty amazing, evolving into a child, evolving into somebody who no longer has that power and control. And then my having to step in and parent her, which was excruciatingly painful because I resented it so deeply. And I also had a logistical, there was she was about an hour and 45 minutes away from me. So I was driving back and forth. My life got upended and was kind of chaotic. And then in the midst of all of that, my wife was less than supportive. She was very aggressively angry that I was giving my mother attention, I was taking away attention from her, really. And so at one of the worst times of my life, I was battling I like I felt it was like a triple battle. Yeah. So um that that when I reached that point of being completely exhausted and drained, because I think you know, one of the things, and I think you've talked about this before on your podcast, that one of the miracles of being a person who grows up in this environment is that you have unlimited stores of power and strength and the ability to tolerate and carry on. I mean, you know, there should be there should be an Olympics for this. Like we should all get gold medals for this, you know. But it is like, and I prided myself on that, and I thought it was really amazing, and I thought that was a skill. And I realized that it was actually, you know, kind of killing me. And not really great. I mean, not asking for help and bearing it all is, you know, not necessarily the best thing in the world. There was a point, and it was just a little bit over a year ago, where all of a sudden the all the light bulb started going off. So that's kind of what happened.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Okay. Wow. That's quite a story that feels way too familiar. Yeah. And most likely universal, right? Because there's so many qualities in your story that I really know will resonate with our listeners because there's this feminine tendency, right, to put our needs to the side for sake of taking care of or being good or achieving, even right. And so we're gonna unpack this today because I I really do think it's important to for us to keep expanding our awareness are the ways in which we abandon ourselves so that we can be, I don't know, appreciated, loved, to use your phrase you use to be taken care of, right? It's a trade-off, right? And so, so let's talk first about you know some parts of

Praise Persona And The Good Girl

SPEAKER_00 8:38

this. Like, what was life like before this period where you got lost? It was high achieving, you said. It was really developing a persona. So tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

One of the beautiful things about being in the wedding cake business, aside from the fact that you're making beautiful things for happy people, you know, which was magical, it was a blessing. I got a lot of immediate feedback and praise. So I think that was one of the things that sort of sustained me over the years. That people were telling me, Oh, this is beautiful, this is great, this is wonderful, delicious. Um, you know, that was really nice. But in my mind, that was my bifurcated business persona, not me personally. And I uh and and so, you know, the other stuff was that I really loved getting praised for being amazing, for being able to put up with so much stuff and to get so much done in a short period of time and to spin so many plates at the same time. Yeah, there was a lot of you know ability to do all that.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

So it's interesting, it's almost like you there was this persona that you were able to become for sake of this need of appreciation, feedback. And and yet you're what I'm hearing you say is that there is this difference from who you were personally.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

You know, I'm also from a Latina background, and I had an interesting conversation with my mother and my aunt, you know, at one point, after uh before this marriage, after my previous marriage, you know, I was sort of raised with the with the notion that you know keeping a house was something that you should be proud of, and you know, not complaining and you know, taking care of others and you know, all that stuff was a was a point of pride. And so, um, and it well, interestingly, with my mother and my aunt all both married uh abusive partners. And I said, you know, why why did you do that? And why did you suggest that I do that? You know, like why did you encourage me to follow that path? And they were like, This is just like kind of what we did, you know, like it was familiar. It was familiar, it was ingrained, you know. I mean, it was like that was the path, and and we were getting gold stars for it. So it was like sort of easy to fall in line, you know. Yeah, but I was, you know, I don't know. I I think I'm really lucky I had a lot of really wonderful people in my life that was giving me a lot of great feedback, your sister being one of them, that I was like, you know what, there's more to me than suffering and climbing mountains every day. When I started, you know, it's sort of like, you know, if you've ever been like walking around all night in high heels and then you take your shoes off, like at first it really hurts, but then you start getting the feeling in your feet. So I started to get that feeling like, oh, okay, I don't need to be doing all that that pain, you know, that those walks of pain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Um that's interesting that you describe it that way as somebody who wears high heels too often. I know what you're talking about. Did you realize at what point? Let me ask it this way, did you realize that you were uh putting up with a lot within these relationships? Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Well, I'll talk about my most recent relationship, which is that, you know, I um I married somebody who had some, you know, physical issues and so needed a lot of time and attention with that. And so that kind of took a lot of um focus and attention. And then it got to a point where I was having some troubles, and I'd say, I need to talk to you about something. I need some help with this. And it was always like, Oh, I can't do that for you. Don't you know what I'm going through? And and then at first, my reaction was, oh, yes, of course. Yes, of course. How can I help you? You know, I'm I'm fine. How can I help you? But then after, you know, maybe like four or five years of that, I was like, I I need help. Like, I'm kind of struggling here. And I think I should have the right to ask for help, and I think I should have the right to expect it. Didn't really 100% believe that, but you you know what I'm saying? It was like that's that's when you know, you know, when my mom got sick and that whole dynamic changed. Okay, it really altered a lot of things about my world, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

So it was like, you know what? I am really struggling with this. This is big, this is the biggest thing I've had to deal with, and I'm not handling it gracefully. I need love and support. And so when I turned around and verbally asked for it and didn't receive it, and worse, that was like, you know, I don't think this is good.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Interestingly, I questioned it. I was I had a uh a counselor at the time, and I'm like, I I think I think I should, you know, I think I should be able to ask for help. I think I'm struggling here. I don't, I don't think I should be feeling badly about needing. And she didn't really, you know, she's one of those counselors who's like, okay, well, let's see how we can help you with this. I'm like, I wish someone had said to me, yeah, Gail, you are a human being that deserves just as much love and care as you give to everybody else. That would have saved me years of aggravation. Um, but that was sort of the moment where I was like, you know, this is hurting way too much.

unknown 14:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Okay. And um, I yeah, I'm I was sort of losing uh stamina.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

So it's interesting the way you're describing this, that it took four or five years to come to, right? It's this gradual process of losing yourself within a relationship, right? Because we are familiar from it, it's culturally ingrained, it's what you do, you know, in a lot of ways, right? And what your parents did, what your mother did, what your aunt did, right? We get that prideful uh uh accommodation or accreditation when we do all the things, right, that a good wife does or a good mother does. Now, it's interesting that you described in in your conversation or your story that the things, you know, like having dreams or having ideas and then watching them get shut down, or having these needs that you were expressing, and then having them not being fulfilled, or even somehow being made to feel like it wasn't okay to have them. Right.

The Loop Of Self Abandonment

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Talk about that, because looking back, what signs did you miss?

SPEAKER_03 15:33

You know, there was a lot of seesawing back and forth because you know, I'd say to myself, this doesn't feel good. I want to drop down into my authentic self and do the things that really resonate with me, not really necessarily taking anything away from anybody else except some time and attention. That would maybe go be okay for a little while, but then I got chided and reprimanded for taking that time and attention. And it was the language was you don't deserve to do this. Oh, you you should be doing this. Like you shouldn't, you shouldn't, you know, you're I'm expecting you to to do X, Y, and Z. And that is not in that definition. And so I immediately go to, oh, I'm being a bad girl. Oh, I'm not doing right. Oh, I need to, you know, step in and do this properly. I'm failing at that, so I need to like focus on that. So there's so then I would go and I would do that for a while and then start to get hungry for myself, and I go back, and then so there's this like there was a you know, this very turgid loop for a while of you know, trying to balance that out until one day I was like, there's no balancing this out. This is this is a very toxic imbalance. And I was a very important part of that loop, which was the other part that was really important for me. Because it's one thing to sit there and go, oh, she's being mean to me. Oh, I'm not getting the love and support, and you know, cry, cry. But I was saying yes, I was participating, I was agreeing.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

So, you know, that was that was the change. So I'm I I switched my counselor to another therapist, and those are the conversations that I started to have, which was who I I always had an I and a definition of who I was. And it turns out that I was not really that person. And my all my coping skills I thought were heroic or actually kind of sad in a way. And so taking that position of like, okay, how did I get here? How did I allow and and embody all of these insecurities and think that it was okay? And then still some part of my mind think I was a strong woman.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, I can see the confusion because I think a lot of women, and I'll ask you if you agree, sometimes confuse sacrifice with love.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

And is that where you were?

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Yeah, I thought it was a gold star. I thought it was an award. Yeah. But the hurt the the better the game, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Right. You know, in my marriage, um, and I only had one, it it was longer enough, um, enough for me, was that I kept just going along with what he wanted. Somehow I, you know, I mirrored my mother insofar that I was there to please him. And pleasing looked like even if I didn't understand, even if I didn't agree, even if it was at all cost of my persona, right? I went along with it. Um and and I got lost in the process deeper and deeper and deeper. Um, and so I definitely was one of those uh women who confused sacrifice with love, um, thinking it was a part of it, like it was the same thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Yeah, and we're told relationships are difficult and it you know requires compromise. And so you go, okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Wow, yeah, that's too clear.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

But then when it shifted to I was wrong for having my desires, that would be correct.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Well, I love I love how you actually were able to get to owning your part because I think that's where the true freedom is, right? When we take accountability for participating in the losing of ourselves, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:46

That was that was hard. I'm honestly because not all of it was very pretty. I mean, it was it was pretty embarrassing and it was pretty shaming, you know, to myself, you know, it's like how how did I get here? You said yeah, I mean, just you know, and I said and did things that I was not proud of, you know, I you know, I argued and made noises that I should never have, you know, things I should never have said. But um, but you know, having gone through that process now, so that was the huge like turn that got the jogger knot to change, right? So this sort of like tectonic shift of wait a minute, this is not right. And I'm feeling it, I'm feeling it now for sure. Not in my head, in my soul, that I was meant for different, and not as uh I'm I I deserve, but as uh this is I have a lot, and this is something that I should have.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

And then that turned into reconciling and balancing all of that stuff. So what I mean by that is you know, so now I have this awareness. Now it's it's taking responsibility for it and being it was it was very it was very difficult. It was very like I want to say shameful to myself, you know, like just being feeling like how you know how to how do you allow and who am I now? And how do you start to place boundaries where you're still getting the pull, you know, those old, you know, yeah tried and true rut, you know, pathways of stepping back into overgiving and you know, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, let's let's talk about some of those pathways, those patterns, right? Because to me, they really ring to or speak about like survival, right? And um like you. I I adapted a lot of this stuff into my life from my upbringing. Um, and what I remember you saying earlier in your story was that you talk about being an overachiever, an overgiver, a problem solver, right? The person who just got things done, handled everything, right? I could so relate to that. So tell us about that version of Gale.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Um so when I was growing up, I was pretty much ignored for all the things that I did, right? So um a little quick story is that um when I was getting ready for the my junior prom in high school, and I was on every committee and did all of that stuff because I did a lot of things to get out of the house. Um Color My World was the song, our song, which happens to be a very short song. So I made a little booklet, and every couple I calligraphed their name and wrote out the thing, you know, this beautiful little thing that was to be given out at the thing, at the prom. And I remember my father coming to me and saying, That's stupid. Like, I don't know why you're wasting your time doing this. It's like this is like such a it was it was such a bucket of cold water. And here I was all joyful and excited about it. And I was putting ridiculous amounts of time, effort, and energy into this thing, but I was getting a lot of joy out of it. Um so I think I I I did get a lot of accolades and a lot of you know gratitude from other people outside of my family. Like when I showed, when I showed up with those little things, everybody thought it was amazing, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

So um wow. Uh so that was fun. You know, it was it was nice to get to work hard at something and get um recognition and affirmation, you know, for that.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:52

And then I got you know better and better at it. And I think, you know, if you really want people to fall in love with you, you learn how to cook. Or better off think.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Well, let me tell you uh a quick aside. So my mother was, you know, my I don't know if my sister was an amazing cook. In fact, she she learned how to cook and how to speak English by watching uh Julia Child on PBS. And so she got her joy of cooking book and did all these crazy recipes for us, you know, unappreciated, but we we were forced to to enjoy uh eat them. And uh anyway, um uh the point being is she was a great cook, but she was a terrible teacher, and she, you know, fought really hard and scrimped or whatever to get certain things in her kitchen, like a Vulcan stove, and which is you know, for those of my listeners that don't know, I think that is a top-level shelf thing to have. And anyway, she wouldn't let us touch it, right? We weren't allowed to touch her things, it was like her thing. So, anyway, I here I am an adult, I didn't know how to cook, I didn't know how to cook. And I married a man who was a chef, thinking, oh my gosh, I won't go hungry, right? Yeah, well, chefs don't like to cook at home, you know. I mean, you can tell me more about that than I know. You know, he certainly wanted to come home and he was perfectly happy having hot dogs. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? So, anyway, I had to really learn myself how to eat. And and I know what you mean in terms of people loving you for being able to cook them a good meal. My children have benefited from me getting better at cooking because they will tell you that in my early years I killed broccoli, for example. Um, and so anyway, I understand that. Now, let me ask you this because I know that so much of this uh growth really was stunted by this idea of being the good girl, the good daughter, right? And it comes with a cost. So tell me what being the good girl meant, you know, meant for you and what did it cost you?

The Cost Of Never Complaining

SPEAKER_03 26:18

So it meant never complaining about you know anything, right? So I I would be starving, I would be freezing, I would um be lonely or sad or whatever, and never ever opened my mouth. And you know, maybe I would solve the problems for myself as I got older, of course, as an adult, I did. Um, but even still, you know, everybody else first, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

And I and I think it really cost me in the sense that one of the things that I've learned now that asking for help is a blessing for both people on both sides, right? You know, and I used to get that a lot. You know, I used to get like, Gail, you're so stoic, you're so tough, you know, and people would find me cold, like chilly sometimes. When they people first met me, especially. I was always very guarded and I wanted to make sure that you were safe, but you know, I never wanted help. It was a it was a badge of honor to do it all myself, no matter how much pain and energy it cost me. And I think I think I've lost a lot from like now now, understanding it the way I understand it now, it's like there were so many collaborations or uh you know dynamics that I missed because I was carrying that torch solo, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah, it's like a coping mechanism, right? Not asking for help. And so I understand that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Um certainly of course I attracted people who liked who liked it, right? So I got a lot of feedback that it was a good thing. You know, not not a lot of people were saying, Hey, let me help you. They were like, Oh, great, you're gonna give me more. I can sit down and relax and you could do everything. That's fantastic. I'm only laughing because three more cherries on top.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

I've been I've been there, been there and done that. Overgiving, right? Overdoing as a way to please people. Yeah. However, I think that when you grow up and you somehow sense, feel, or know, like your needs aren't going to be met, right? You learn to shut them down as if that just means you're needy. When what I've come to appreciate and certainly understand in therapy through therapy is that having needs doesn't make you needy, it just makes you human, right? And yet we kind of have been raised in certainly not only in our families, but also in our culture, that it's it's you know, you're too needy, you want too much. Yeah, you know, stop.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Don't cause me any problems, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Right. Yeah, just shut that stuff down. And uh yeah, that's that's crazy. So we talk about coping versus healing, right? I think that so many women struggle with this, right? We've we're praised for holding everything together, you know, and not needing too much or anything, or asking for help, right? We'll do it all. But eventually that strategy just helps us survive. We we don't really thrive there, absolutely.

The Car Moment That Broke

SPEAKER_00 29:31

So when did you realize you were empty?

SPEAKER_03 29:34

There's a famous story in my marriage where I had had a particularly rough time with my mother, you know. If you know anything about dementia, you know, through the phases of dementia, there's a phase where they're just agitated and they cause all sorts of chaos and tear their houses apart. You know, it's just so every day I was getting phone calls. She was in uh assisted living and they were like threatening to, you know, ask her to leave and you know, all this stuff. Because I was so so far away, I would go there and I would have a few hours to go to the drugstore to do these things that the window of the nine to five day. And then I had to turn around and get on the LIE and traffic to go home and make dinner. And so one day I'm sitting in my car and I'm like, I'm just like, I can I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna get the energy to go home. And I called my wife and I said, Can you please handle dinner tonight? And her response was, I can't believe why didn't you eat? You should have gotten a sandwich. And I was like, I don't need you to yell at me right now. I need you to take care of me really. I am I am at the point where I don't have that shame of being a good girl. I am so down, I am so empty, I am so desperate. And then when asking for it and not only not getting it, but being chided for asking for it, was like, I don't have any more down to go.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

You know, I don't know. I and I would just I just sat in the car and just bawled and cried. And then I got very numb. You know, then I I went home and I just was like, all right, I'm just gonna do. And I did that for a little while, and then that quickly started to turn into, yeah, I this is not my life, you know. I'm okay this is just not, and no matter what I did, nobody was happy, right? I I wasn't taking care of my mother properly, I wasn't taking care of my family properly. I was or certainly wasn't taking care of myself properly, right? And I thought this is all wrong.

unknown 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

So what happens when coping stops working?

SPEAKER_03 31:41

A lot of tears. Fortunately, not a lot of alcohol or anything like that, because that's another coping mechanism, right? I mean, I I withdrew, like my coping method mechanism was to withdraw. I actually took some time away from my marriage. I came to New York and stayed in my apartment just to sort of catch my breath and get my legs back underneath me, you know, go for a couple of weeks, and then I would reconcile everything and try to figure out, like, oh yes, I can tolerate this after all, and then I go back. And so there's a lot of back and forth about that also. Um but then you know, like it gets to a point where I started to say to myself, okay, so I've I now live in this this imbalanced environment. How like I want to be in a balanced environment. I love this person, I love my my wife, I love my the life that we have. How do I make it into the healthy thing that I want it to be or it should be?

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

So I started to think about that. So, what does that mean? That means a lot more communication, you know, for one, and uh vulnerability to be truthful about what you need and what you want. And that was really, really hard because first of all, I didn't have the language for it. I did not know how to say, I need this, or I'm upset, or I'm angry. Definitely did not have to know how to say I'm angry without falling apart. You know, I only knew extreme. So um, but I started to practice. I started to say, okay, I really need to grab attention, sit down and say, I wanna, I wanna do this. I want us to be healthy. I'm getting healthier, I want us to be healthier. Um, you know, let's build this better together.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

And I knew it was gonna be tough. I knew my wife was gonna struggle with it because she, you know, what does she know? She's going along, living her life. All of a sudden, here I am.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

But I worked really hard on that for a long time. I actually did that for um about two years. I moved into that zone.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

So so talk a little bit about what what you leaned on to help you to rebuild the communication.

Therapy Plus A Safer Support System

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Um, I leaned on, I would say a couple of different things. I did have a good therapist, counselor. I mean, it was really important for me to talk. And I was very fortunate that the person I was working with did not work by the hour. She worked by the phone call. So I could get on the phone and talk for two hours if I needed to like work it all through, which was priceless. I think that's really important. Or it was important for me at that time, not so much now, but to because I just had all of this offloading that I needed to do.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

You're carrying all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

Um, I then I then started to develop a friend network, which was also like really, really important, and people that were not toxic, which was not easy. You know, because I'm still wanted to please people and make everybody happy. And to like me, I thought I had to be good to you. So that was a bit of a challenge, but that was easier because those people responded, right? If I said, you know what, I'm struggling with this, they would say, Oh, I'm sorry, how can I help? Which was the beginnings of showing me that those relationships there was a possibility of being in a healthy dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Um and I have to say that that was that was really priceless. In the end, that really, I think, is what and when I when I made the decision to leave my marriage, it was those relationships that I leaned on that were absolutely life-saving.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

So it sounds like you were you were learning how to rebuild a support system that could help you take action in your life.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Right. A safe place where I could say I need help and know that I wouldn't, I would be lend a hand, you know, like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Foundation for help. That's that's really, you know, intentionally created, which I it seems to, based on what you're saying, going against this old version of you, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:06

That was very, very new and strange, but I was in a desperate place. You know, like when you're starving, you'll eat anything, right? So I was willing to, but you know, I had friends that would I would walk in the door and they would look at me and go, You're not doing so great today, are you? And I'd say no, and they'd say, Come sit here, just come sit down next to me. No talking, just just I'm right here. Come sit next to me, be right here. And even those moments were extremely powerful that someone was willing to be grinding and be caring without having to be performative, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah. You know, it is interesting.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

They didn't have to perform.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Yeah, I think this is where a lot of women struggle, if I can say, like I I can only relate to it myself. Like, I was very resilient in my life. I, in fact, I confused resilience as a as a superpower, and I thought, oh my goodness, you know, and yet what it was doing was it was can contributing to my level of self-abandonment.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Right. And um, and only because it's what I grew up around was like we just you move forward, we just keep going, we just keep going. Now, what I really love about what I'm hearing is you were learning to receive also, right? The care and feeding and and being willing to be seen vulnerable, right? In your moment of really low point, which a lot of women, you know, hey, I I'm one of them too. That that's not comfortable, is it? It's not, it's really tough, particularly when you're an overachiever, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Yeah, so you have to drop your mantle of I'm okay, I can do everything. Yeah, how everybody sees you, has known you, right? And then be like, I'm falling apart into a million pieces, and I need you to help me because I'm going to slip away into nothingness.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

It's really having it's very it takes a certain amount of bravery and audacity to do it. But what I found was though, so here is the miracle. Okay, is that the more that I did it, the more I received it. Oh, the more I was saying to people, and even if I didn't have give them the whole story or like yak, yak, yak about it, just be like, yeah, I'm having a hard time. And just sitting with that and letting them say, Oh, I am I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm here. Was it started to it reached a point where it started to become like I craved it. You know, then it was like, oh yes, that's home, that's the beacon, that's the place to go.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

And it wasn't, and I knew that it wasn't just my friends. Like I knew, I mean, my friends were amazing, right? I didn't want to transfer all of my like redirect all of my things to my friends. It wasn't their job, they're part of they're part of the dynamic, right? But um, but then it, you know, and it's also again, it's like um exposure therapy, you know, it's more and more, and it felt better and better and safer and safer. And then so and now here's the other miracle that when I had I had an incident this morning where I had done someone a favor, kind of overextended myself a little bit a few months ago, and they dropped the ball on something. And so I reached out to them and said, Hey, I'm sorry, I should have reached out to you sooner, but we've we need to solve this problem. And I got an asshole response from them. And the first reaction would have been, I'm so sorry, it's my fault. I should have done this, I should have handled this differently. Don't worry, it's fine. And I said, No, I should have to this mood, like, you know, that's that's not making me comfortable. I'm not really happy about that. I'm showing to you honestly and um about this. If I miss something, let's talk about it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

And so those I I can not only I don't have to intellectualize those cues so much anymore, I feel those cues. So when someone's being a jerk, I can very quickly go, yeah, no, yeah, not so much.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

So you're touching

Boundaries Without Carrying Their Energy

SPEAKER_00 40:36

on something that's an interesting topic about like moving from being a victim to being accountable, right? Right. And so, you know, one of the things I really appreciate is that perspective because I know that when I have allowed myself to be the victim, I open myself up to, you know, no boundaries, people taking advantage of me, which then leads to resentments, right? And I'm just left being unhappy. Yet when I'm accountable to myself and my life, then I can hold other people accountable for their commitments, right? So talk a little bit about how you move, how you were able to shift from the where you were, just taking it and doing things, overachieving, overgiving, blah, blah, blah, to this point of being able to notice when something doesn't work out the way you want, like you just described. And you can reach out and hold the other person accountable without taking all the uh I don't lion's share of responsibility for the situation.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

I think the the major thing was that it started to occur to me that a again, this kind of went back to my perspective and my responsibility in the dynamic. So I started to understand that, like in this to use the example of this situation this morning, that this toxic dialogue, I had two options on how to handle it, right? I could fawn and you know, apologize and try to make right and take it on the chin, or I could recognize that this is something that I can choose to take or not take, to carry or not to carry, or to interpret in that way or not interpret in that way. So by the way, in this conversation with this person, I start to think, what's going on with her that she has to call me these names and treat me in this way? Like I know that I didn't do anything wrong, right? Or I don't believe, I mean, I'm willing to talk about if I did, but I I believe that a majority of that conversation was drawn, was driven by something that I shamed her somehow in my my choice of language, or who knows? But it's this is a walking dynamic. So I'm gonna I want to share something with you, and maybe this is this might be too much, but I'm gonna share with you anyway. Okay. So I I came to a realization that we are all sort of bodies of like energy, if you will. And use aura if you want, because we know that. And we have, you know, you know, you you you meet people that are so light and so energetic and so creative, and you know, we love that, right? Like we're drawn to we all have our energies and our experiences, and we have to integrate. So we bump into each other, we come to each other, and our colors change because of that mix, that time that we share with each other. And sometimes some goes to you, and sometimes some goes to me. And Sometimes those things meld and sometimes they don't. You know, and at some point you go, you know what, that's not working, and that's how we kind of pull away and move towards somebody else.

unknown 44:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

There's always some kind of residual, right? There's always a little bit of a mark, which is a beautiful part of being a human, right? Like we don't want to be insulated and insular and perfect and contained. We want to lean in and spill over and receive, you know, into each other. So with that in mind, you know, when I think about when I put in that perspective in my mind, I I have a lot of, I want to say forgiveness, but I have a whole lot of it's not important. Like I you are going through your thing, has nothing to do with me.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

I'm not gonna have, I'm not gonna now create another negative.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

So you don't take it personally, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:54

Right. And now I'm walking around like with a whole bunch of toxic angst and and anger and energy. Like this this thing's conversation this morning, I could be like, you know, you know, like yeah, you don't have to. And then talk to my friends and be like, God, do you believe her? And blah blah, you know, like all that spills out.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

And what does that do for anybody?

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Okay. So what I'm hearing and what you're sharing, Gail, is that you realize that, you know, other people's energy is something that you can pick up and carry, or you can just leave right where they are, right? Where you connect it with it. Because you're right. I I agree with you, it is a choice. Like we our attitudes are our choice, our perspectives are our choice and and our outlooks, right? And I think like at any moment or any intersection we have with a situation or an individual or conversation, um, it really is a choice about what we choose to carry and then take into the rest of our day, or what we can just sort of leave right where we met it, right? Just right there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

So the trick, and especially for people like us, yeah, to learn when to hold space. Have it not feel like you're sacrificing or you're taking too much on. Just hold space.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's that's a great tool, actually, right? That you can hold it without continuing to care it, carry it, right? So you know, let's shift

The “University Of Mary” Reframe

SPEAKER_00 46:33

a little bit. You mentioned in an earlier conversation with me this idea of the university of Mary. Right? And I really love that phrase, but I don't know that I fully understand it, but you said you referred to your marriage as the university of Mary. So tell us what that means.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Yeah, and I'm telling you, I'm the lawyers are charging me a lot of tuition these days. Um I I recognize that, you know, I had been in a series of relationships similar to my relationship with Mary. And um, so I had been repeating the panic. So which I was like, okay, universe, I got it. Like, okay, already. But, you know, I, you know, like everybody says, you know, when they go through something horrible, it's always a blessing for them. And I, you know, Mary was is not the worst person in the world. She's got a lot of wonderful things about her. She is, she does a lot of self-work. I mean, she's not, she's uh, you know, I get on on her case, but she really is a lot of amazing, wonderful things. I met, I loved that woman. I fell in love with her. Um, and so because of that, there were, you know, there there was a lot of of play in our dynamic. And so I got to really grow and learn from from her. And had I not been through that relationship, had I not gone through all of this stuff, I would not be the person I that I am today.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

I mean, I wish I had done it 50 years ago, uh-huh. 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Yeah, they were hard lessons, but I I hear I'm hearing gratitude. I'm hearing gratitude.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

Tremendous, tremendous amount of gratitude.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

And honestly, as I go forth with my divorce, that's my uh attitude about it. It's like, you know, we're just here now, like we have just come to this place. So I don't I don't fight in my divorce. I don't, that's not what it's about. You know, this this is a business dynamic, not an emotional, you know, dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a more freeing perspective in terms of how to approach this stage of it. Um, yeah. It's when I adopted when, you know, I'm divorced now four years, and um, and whatever it is that I have to keep doing with in regards to my ex-husband, you know, legally, I I know that one, I'm not doing it on my own, you know, it can be expensive, but that's what lawyers are for, so that I can be detached. Yeah. And I also realize that all of this, because my biggest lesson that I had to learn in life was about boundaries and growing up in a family where those didn't exist, right? It became something that every relationship I've ever had outside of my family of origin has been here to teach me, is about boundaries so that I don't lose myself, you know. Um, so yeah, I understand that in that tuition that we have to grow, you know, internalize anyway.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

No, I I seriously am like tremendously grateful, really.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

That's it's great when you can shift right to gratitude out of hurt victimization or resentment to gratitude. It's freeing.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

And and I would also say it's a little bit even broader than gratitude for me. It's more, I mean, because I'm certainly grateful, but it's also like I have this, it's like my you know, you wiped off your glasses, I can see more clearly, I have better understanding, I have clarity with my clarity is deeper and greater and wider. Right. But I mean, because of that shift, you know, that change.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

Lucky. I I know that a lot of women go through these relationships and get so battered and brutalized, it's really impossible to not feel you know.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

That's a good it's a good point.

Where To Start When You Feel Stuck

SPEAKER_00 50:22

So for the women who are listening to women like who feel stuck, yeah, exhausted or lost, right? What what where do you recommend that she begin?

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Honestly, I think the first place is you really need to find a good counselor or therapist. And what I mean by that is you need to find somebody who speaks your language. And if you have to talk to a hundred people, then you have to talk to a hundred people. And it's your fault and it's not a failing, and it's not that they're bad counselors, it's that you haven't found your thing. And when you have someone that really helped, like really resonates with you and hears you and you hear each other, right? It's it's leaps and bounds can happen, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 51:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

So that's number one. And a lot and the and the biggest problem is that we're so used to doing things by ourselves, like, oh yes, I watch the podcasts, I read the books, you know, I'm good, I know how to do this. So that I guess is probably the first thing is to recognize that you cannot do this alone.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Okay, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

Um and then I think you know, the next thing is like if you're gonna if you're gonna do this work, then you need to take off the rose-colored glasses and really see things for what they are.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

I mean, so get honest, right? Right, be really honest. Oof. Yeah, I'm telling you, that was the most humbling part of this whole process for me, towards accountability and away from victimization, is just embracing honesty.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

You know, realizing that in every situation that I felt transgressed or hurt by, there was a part that I played. Um, you know, and this is in my adulthood, you know, as a child, that's a different thing, but as an adult, I was still participating in ways that was that were abandoning myself, right? Or further creating suffering for me.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

So anyway, silences that were really loud in your head, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Yeah, yeah, honesty. Well, good.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

Those are some great say for people, you know, to people, and as and I say to myself on a regular basis that all of this, there is safety in all of this, right? I mean, it is non-linear, it is not, it is not fine, like you know, it's sort of like yoga, you know, however you show up that day is how you show up that day.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

So there's a lot of forgiveness about, you know, like there are days like in tears and feeling like I'm weak and wishing I could go back, you know, like I wish I want to go back to that magical time that I used to know, right? And so that is all part of the process, right? And really important to then take in and ex, you know, like it's it's all there. Like you can't you can't shut the door and close it off.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Like that is yeah, there's no such thing as as amputation or closure, right? Forgiveness and grace, I think, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

But was it what was that movie? The the Spotless Mind where they couldn't. Right. That would have been really nice.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Take the medicine and be clear. No, it doesn't work, thankfully, because I have you know gained a lot of insight from that reflection.

Rapid Fire Lessons On Healing

SPEAKER_00 53:47

All right, so let's shift into what I call rapid fire, right? As a way to sort of wrap things up here. I'm gonna give you a couple sentences that I'll begin and then I want you to finish them. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

So the biggest lesson my marriage taught me was um that um my instincts are are valid and not wrong. The boundary I wish I learned sooner is I I I think that would be uh just just knowing where the just being able to say where the edge is, like not being ashamed to say this is just too much. Like not so much and not feel not feel like a bad person for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Right. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Healing means uh healing means breathing, and I think it really means quiet. I think it really means settling into yourself and your your authentic self and what's really what's happening around you and just calming down, like really just calming down.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah. And finally, the woman I'm becoming is so fucking amazing.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

Yes. I'm so happy. Like it's it's so interesting because um uh all my I I summarine East Hampton and so all my tennis pals, like we're all gonna, we haven't seen each other since you know last fall. And a friend of mine said to me the other day, we're like, oh my god, Gail, like you were so you look so different, you know, you were so dark and heavy, and boy, you're like so different now. And I'm like, because everyone's like, Oh, how's the divorce? And I'm like, I'm great, I'm great. Yeah, you know, it's hard, it's a pain in the ass, but I'm so you know, I I just wake up and I go, you know, I'm I'm I'm shocked every day at how how old I am. And I'm and sometimes I I get upset about that, like God, I all those years, but also I've got all of these years.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 56:16

And every day, I had a great experience last night. Like every day there's you know, when you're when you're in this place, now when you get to this place, and God, any anybody out there who's who's getting to this place, I mean, I I'm so happy for you, and I hope that you get here. But every day there are miracles, like every day there is beauty and miracles. I mean, it sounds, you know, woo-woo-y silly, but I'm telling you, on the subway, you know, in a tomato patch. I mean, it's just like it's just kind of incredible.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Well, you make fucking awesome look really, really good. I love this for you.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

I love this for you, you know, and you know, it's just like enjoy. Enjoy. I used to tell this joke that um, you know, in the Catholic Church, uh, you know, the scripture says that priests should be celibate. And I thought, what if they were wrong? What if it was that priests should celebrate? Like we should be rejoicing. We should get the word wrong. There was like one of those guys who did the calligraphy just did the wrong little twist, right? But think about that. Like, could you think about the joy of religion and God and and hope and you know, all of that? Like that makes more sense, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, let's find more reasons to celebrate, more reasons to celebrate. So so for our listeners who are definitely going to be inspired by this conversation and want to learn more about you and the woman you're

Gail’s New Work And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 57:43

becoming. So tell my listeners where they can learn more about your work and how to connect with you.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

Um so I'm doing a couple of new things. So I'm going back to my original art school stuff. I was a photographer in art school, so I'm doing that, and that's on um a littlebirdstudio uh.com and it's GailWatson Photo on Instagram. Um, and then I'm doing I'm back to cooking and doing my food again and creating recipe developing and stuff, and that's on a healthy hunger uh website, TikTok, Instagram, all the same.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Okay. We'll make sure we list all of this in the show notes.

SPEAKER_03 58:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Um and girlfriends, I'm here for you.

SPEAKER_03 58:30

So like you need to reach out, seriously. Um I'm happy.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

You should consider, yep. You probably, you know, not are so busy, but you know, it's certainly like a dear Abby version, a deal, a dear Gail version of navigating.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

And I think you're really good at that. I'm gonna leave next to you, my darling.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Thank you. Yeah, right. We gotta learn to stay in our lanes. All right. So, all right, friends, thank you so much for tuning in today. And thank you, Gail, for being here with us. This has been a very lively conversation about so many things that can happen in our life when we get lost and how we can find our way back. So, thank you for joining us and sharing your experience, your strength, and your hope with our listeners.

SPEAKER_03 59:17

Thanks. Well, thank you to you because I listened to your podcast and the energy and the wisdom that you impart to women is just it resonates so well, and it's priceless. So thank you for the work that you do.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. All right, listeners.

Closing Permission To Take Up Space

SPEAKER_00 59:33

So if today's conversation resonated with you, I hope it reminds you that you are allowed to evolve, you're allowed to have needs, you're allowed to take up space, seriously. You are allowed to outgrow old roles, you are allowed to stop carrying responsibilities that were never yours to begin with. And you're allowed to become someone new without apologizing for it. And if you're looking for support in your own journey, visit my website to learn more about coaching workshops, retreats, and online courses at AnnaMcBride.com. You've been listening to She Asked, Tools for Practical Hope. I've been your host, Anna McBride. Thank you for joining us. And until soon, be well.